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Seer Stone in
the hat vs Urim
and Thummim
Claim: Joseph referred
to the stone as the Urim
and Thummim
sometimes
No evidence, he was
very clear about what
the Urim and Thummim
were.
Seer stone vs seer
stones. Urim and
Thummim/Interpreters
were ALWAYS pluralized
Was Joseph a translator
or a reader?
Claim: Joseph read
words from the stone,
didn't see the plates.
Violates principle of
revelation that we put
forth effort.
Joseph knew Nephite
characters, and taught
them to others.
Joseph said the Title
Page for the BoM came
from last leaf on the
plates, which means he
looked at them.
Joseph said the name
Mormon didn't come
from Greek "mormo"
and the Plates didn't
have any Greek
characters
God coined the term
"translate" and called
Joseph a "translator"
Intro page of BoM was
"last page" which he
would only know if he
was using the plates.
Seer Stone
Did Joseph use his
prophetic gift as a Seer
to "find lost items"?
1826 Trial
Based on hearsay
article disguised to look
like a court transcript.
Comes from the Frasier
Magazine under "State
of Utah vs Joseph
Smith"
Claim: Joseph used both
The only record of him
using the Stone in the
Hat is from apostates
who never returned to
the Church.
Emma Smith
Emma's children and
the Reorganized Church
was opposed to SitH in
Newspaper Publications
She made 2 statements
that contradicted the
rest of what she said, at
the end of her life
decades after the
translation was done.
One statement in an
interview
One statement in a
letter
She never saw the
translation process or
plates
David Whitmer
One of the worst
apostates, responsible
for genocide and gang
rape among other
persecutions.
Jealous of Joseph's gift
and duty.
Record made 3+
decades after
Mormonism Unveiled
made the same claim
Joseph described him as
a betrayer, despicable,
dishonored, he's going
to hell because of
shedding innocent
blood.
Though the primary
source for SitH, he was
very inconsistent,
changing his story back
and forth 13 times.
Urim and Thummim
(original story, later
recanted)
Confused the heck out
of the journalist.
Claimed he saw Joseph
Translate with the Urim
and Thummim
Also claimed the Urim
and Thummim were
taken after he lost the
116 pages.
How did David see him
translate with the Urim
and Thummim if he
didn't meet Joseph until
after Joseph lost the 116
pages?
Also claimed Joseph
didn't hide the plates,
but had them openly
being translated in the
Whitmer living room,
the sheet was only to
hide it from guests.
Why was he begging to
be one of the witnesses
if he had seen Joseph
translating for months?
Joseph was told by
Moroni and God that if
he showed the Plates to
anyone without being
given permission, he
would be destroyed.
Joseph said he wasn't
alone after the 3 were
given permission to see
it, and saw it.
Martin Harris
Reportedly switched
out the stone in a hat
for a random rock, and
Joseph said "it's black as
Hades!"
Story came 2nd hand,
10 years after Martin's
death, from Edward
Stevenson
Records from Joseph,
Oliver, Moroni, and God
say he used Urim and
Thummim only.
Joseph
Only ever spoke of
translating with Urim
and Thummim
Oliver
God
Repeatedly said Joseph
translated with Urim
and Thummim
Moroni
Presented Urim and
Thumming with Gold
Plates to 3 Witnesses
Did not show or
mention the seer stone
God did not command
them to witness the
seer stone. D&C 17:1
Told J.S. that the clear
stones in the gold
frame, possession and
use constitute "seers"
Scriptural evidence
All scriptures refer to
"interpreters" which
were stored with the
BoM, which is Urim and
Thummim.
When Joseph lost the
gold plates, he also lost
Urim and Thummim, no
mention of seer stone.
D&c 10:1,3 God
says, "by means of
the U&T," then
"continue as you
began."
Question: Why does it
even matter?
The natural question: If
J.S. wasn't looking at or
even using the plates,
was the Book of
Mormon a historic
record?
If Joseph didn't use the
Plates to translate, and
was reading from a
stone using "spiritual
WiFi" how do we know
what he read came
from the plates?
Progressives and anti-
Mormons want to
destroy our religion
Lack of trust in the
Church is 3rd most
common reason people
leave
We need to stick with
the real history, not the
Progmo history
Jeremy Runnels
included this as a major
part of his reason for
leaving
Joseph Fielding Smith
research over 100 years
ago, closer to the
events than now.
Author of over 13
books, including tough
topics like blood
atonement and
polygamy
10th President of the
Church
"No authentic
statement in the
history of the Church
which states the the
use of such a stone was
made in that
translation. The
information is all
hearsay, and personally,
I do not think the stone
was used for this
purpose."
Indicates critic's
arguments
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